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SandenCO2 split type air to water heat pump modelling in H2K for ERS

  • 30 Jul 2020 5:27 PM
    Message # 9136015
    Anonymous

    Per H2K User Guide 15.9-17.15.11 one cannot model a split type air to water heat pump in H2K for ERS purposes and must ask NRCan for special instructions. 17.14.9.2 won't help. I've contacted NRCan but no response yet. I also sent a note to the Canadian Sanden distributor on this, email string below. Short answer: no-one I know knows how to do this, including my EA mentor. Can anyone else please help?

    From: John Miles <John.Miles@sanden.com>

    Subject: RE: Modelling the SANCO2 in Hot2000 (Canada)

    Date: July 29, 2020 at 11:17:36 AM PDT

    To: Nigel Protter <nigel@shape.energy>


    Nigel

    Sorry for the delay but I have been trying to get a comprehensive answer for you

    I just received this from someone with direct knowledge of the product in Hot 2000

    It does appear because of the unique design of the product we cannot model directly with the program

    I know NRCAN is looking at a different metric for split type water heaters but this is not available at the moment

    Albert Rooks at Small Planet Supply in Vancouver is aware of this issue also

    Currently only integrated heat pump hot water heaters (no outdoor unit, no vents to the outside) can be officially modelled in Hot2000. We have contacted NRCan a number of times about this issue but have not been provided with any guidance yet. In the meantime, it is 

    possible to model Sanden systems by first treating it as an integrated heat pump system and then modelling it again with an electric hot water tank with the same stand-by heat loss establishing this way how much energy the integrated heat pump is “stealing” from the heating system and how much it is “contributing” to cooling. The heating and cooling energy consumptions are then being corrected using those values since the Sanden system is a split system and therefore does not affect heating/cooling. This being said, this is not part of the official ERS energy modelling guidelines and therefore can’t be used for EnerGuide files. See highlighted sections of the EnerGuide Rating System HOT2000 User Guide Version 15.9. below.

    John Miles

    Eco2 Systems LLC

    *****Note New Email***** john.miles@eco2systemsllc.com

    Tel : 844 726 3262 x 403

    Mobile : 213 400 7758

    Web : www.sandenwaterheater.com

  • 31 Jul 2020 11:09 AM
    Reply # 9137150 on 9136015
    Deleted user

    Hi Nigel,

    This is off your topic but related.  For your interest,

    We looked at a Sanden for Ottawa and advised against it.  The unit sends potable water outdoors to collect heat at the evaporator. During a power outage there is a risk of potable water freezing causing a leak and damaging the equipment.  These were designed for non or light freezing areas (originated from Japan).  I hope they can make one with the coax heat exchanger situated indoors. The C02 refrigerant is amazing.

    Matthew

    Last modified: 31 Jul 2020 11:10 AM | Deleted user
  • 19 Aug 2020 1:00 PM
    Reply # 9176279 on 9136015
    Deleted user

    Nigel, your SO and NRCan should have given you modeling instructions for the Sanden. Its a workaround for now: model the Sanden as a desuperheater with an EF of 1.0. Builders who are trying to reach high performance aren't very happy with this.

    Stan

  • 20 Aug 2020 8:06 AM
    Reply # 9178611 on 9136015
    Deleted user

    Hi Stan, this kind of crude or unfair treatment is a serious issue for the industry and the credibility of programs for builders. I’ve seen traditional Combi boilers eliminated from programs without a rational justification rather it seems to be an oversight. The Technical Committee can present such concerns to NRCan. I think you could forward issues to Cindy Gareau for the committee.

    Matthew 

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